Sorry excuse for ATC

[Jetsgo]

savage wrote:
As far as I know, if a pilot feels like a
landing will put the passenger's safety in danger, the PILOT has the final word on whether he wants to continue with the landing or not.

According to VATSIM, this is not the case. I was on final to Vancouver International after a 3 HOUR long flight from California, with
the runway in sight, and the ATC told me to turn left to a certain heading due to traffic, which I shouldn't have had to do as I was about to
land. Anyways, after really not wanting to turn, I landed without clearence (BIG MISTAKE on vatsim!) Anyways, a supervisor was
summoned to have a little chat with me on how I was "refusing ATC orders". The supervisor (who is a real life pilot) told me that if in real
life, if you were a pilot and you refused ATC orders, a (and I qoute) "large armed gentalmen would be waiting for you at the gate." I
guess it's tottally different in real life, it has to be if the passengers are in danger, but on VATSIM that's a big no!

Brad, if you ever refuesed to do something the ATC told you in the air, would you get in a lot of trouble like the supervisor says?

[DJGodden]

737-700 at 145 knots on final to KORD... totally socked in and zero visibility (using ASV). Cat III landing and I just start to see little fuzzy
lights of the runway... down to 200 feet and WHOOSH... a 777 goes flying by just over my head landing on the same runway, jet wash ( I
assume) flips me on my side and *poof*... I'm dead.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.............

[savage]

Well obviously refusing ATC is not the way to go - and that is not what I said either.

If you're on finals and ATC instructs you to abort your landing and turn, you better turn.

If ATC cleared you for landing, and you see a goat running across the runway, you are WELL in your rights to advise ATC that you are
aborting your landing and going arround.

It's two different situations, and I believe you (in your crash), was in the later category.

[Jetsgo]

I've about had it up to here ^ with Vancouver ATC on VATSIM! I'll never fly there again.

[RonMac]

Happens sometimes.

Had Lear bounce me on very tricky landing at Maderia. Very nasty landing stuff around this wee airport.

Also other aircraft not leaving runway, pilot sleeping, shagg....., drunk or whatever in Fs9, so I will Go Around. This is self flagelation
(already hinted at in this thread) of Passengers forcing you into correct procedures. Without this add on I just bounced them or swerved
at 120mph!

Lost all my passengers last night, when I made a hash of take off in Airbus 300-200. Killed them all.

How about some God Like music as the pilot is resurcected?

[Nuttycomputer]

Lol, savage is right. Theres different options for different items.

For instance what you did was just land, ATC told you it was "unsafe" in their eyes to land. They did not give you clearance to land, so in
otherwords you just can't.

If you wanted to pull for still trying to land you could have said unable, but they probably would have given you a turn anyways.

In Real Life if you can't follow an order ATC tells you, you don't just ignore them and do it anyways. You say "Unable" or like savage
said "Going around"

Notice the difference, one you were told to do something. The other you were given "clearance" to do something.

[SAS480]

Ryan--> How did you feel that the ATC's instruction was endangering your passengers? Reason for ATC breaking you off the approach is
often due to other problems or traffic. You must realize that the controller, even on VATSIM, has a helluva better oversight over the
situation than the pilot. But ofcourse, even though the controllers on VATSIM goes thru plenty of training, it is only a hobby/simulation and
errors occur. Slow or erroneous ATC can be VERY annoying, but it's part of the game.

Anyhow, just rejecting what ATC tells you to and ignore him/her, is just not very professional. Ignoring ATC is one of the main reasons for
the worlds most fatal aviation accident ever, so it probably not gonna make you any safer. Now, enough of the


/Daniel

[almoto]

My 2 favorite AI aircraft on approach issues i have had were I was on final approach to DCA in Concorde got waved off twice and vectored
all over the eastern seaboard before landing and the second one i was in a 747-400 on approach to PNL but before i intercepted the
glide slope when a 737 went under me

[WBHoenig]

That's exactly why I revere VATSIM.

[Jetsgo]

SAS480 wrote:
Ryan--&gt How did you feel that the ATC's instruction was endangering your passengers? Reason for ATC breaking you off the
approach is
often due to other problems or traffic. You must realize that the controller, even on VATSIM, has a helluva better oversight over the
situation than the pilot. But ofcourse, even though the controllers on VATSIM goes thru plenty of training, it is only a hobby/simulation and
errors occur. Slow or erroneous ATC can be VERY annoying, but it's part of the game.

Anyhow, just rejecting what ATC tells you to and ignore him/her, is just not very professional. Ignoring ATC is one of the main reasons for
the worlds most fatal aviation accident ever, so it probably not gonna make you any safer. Now, enough of the


/Daniel

Well... I donno, I mean I have to admit, this whole thing was avoidable and it is my fault for refusing the ATC's commands. But the ATC in
Vancouver was being really rude! I was preparing to disconnect, but I thought I might explain why I don't want to turn right away , by calmly
telling him what the problem was... he replied by I DONT CARE, I don't know, he was just rude. I'll never fly there again.

[MattNW]

The "Pilot In Command" rule is one of those "damned if you do and damned if you don't" things. It assumes that you as pilot have total
control and responsibility for your aircraft and passengers. If you are instructed to do something by ATC and cannot comply because you
know something that ATC doesn't. For example you are told to make a right turn onto heading 120 and that will immediately put you into
the face of a mountain with 150 passengers then you as pilot in command have not only the right but the duty not to make that fatal turn.
It's best if you inform ATC of the situation first but in an immediate emergency you may disregard their instructions and inform them after
you don't hit that mountain.

However (and a big however) you may indeed meet the armed gentleman when you get on the ground. You will likely endure endless
hours of grueling FAA interviews and hopefully they won't use the cattle prods and LSD . Every decision you made on that flight and
since high school graduation will be reviewed and re-reviewed and commented on endlessly but if you are found to be right you recieve a
pat on the back and some poor ATC controller will get a note put into his employee records. If however you were wrong you will be the
one with the note in your employee records that is if you don't loose your license and job.

In other words ignore ATC at your peril and if you do just hope you made the right choice and ATC made the wrong one. That's basically
how it works or at least how my instructor explained it to me. The pilot in command rule isn't permission to do what you want but it is
permission to do what you know is right. You just better hope it was right.

[QF6024]

Try this one

Lined up nice and patient at EHAM, Ok third in line at this point.
The approaching traffic on final-Well let us say that the sky was completely full of call signs. Stacked one on top another. All med to heavy all
within a space of 5miles of each other . This was going to be a long wait, then all of a sudden aERJ145 was screaming along at ground level for about
3 miles like a bloody racing car undercutting all the other traffic.

The first plane in the cue was sent to cyber Purgatory for waiting so long. ATC sent a few planes on their merry go round but little thought was given
for those wanting to take off.

EHAM has 3 parallel runways would it not be good thinking to use some of the other rwys simulatanously. Or just plain stupidity on my part.

AI smooth appears to only concern itself with seperation in the air, not to help you get in it.!!

[img]http://www.fspassengers.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif
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Paul

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UPPL out of YPPH

Sorry cannot resist a drink

[Dutch64]

Ai in fs is still a mess, you can't do much about it but wait for fsnext

[John44111]

DanSteph wrote:

eazy wrote:
However I wouldn't disable collision detection, just in case it was my own fault. I love being punished (only by FSP, so don't get me
wrong)

I'll call the next version of FsP "Mistress Domina" this may
help some to have even more pleasure

Dan
"Dear passengers, the noise you hear coming from cockpit is simply our nice hostess Miss Domina
that have some fun with the captain... hold on your seat belt"

How do I get this mod is this in the download section? if not, why not ?