We think we know what we're doing...

[KenG]

My response was initially aimed at the following:

"As for your statement that you would "never let a person whose only experience has been computer simulation and are home taught
near the controls of an aircraft that I am in command of," well, sir, I call you an idiot and that is my opinion on that matter."

Bottom line when I am in command of an airplane it is my license on the line if a FAR is busted. On a flight where passengers are being
hauled, nope sorry, no non-pilots will touch the controls. Justified to say that there are specific rules that prohibit that.

What about if I rent an airplane and take people up on my dime. I can ask a reasonable person to assist me with minor tasks in the
cockpit. Anything more and I would have to hold a current CFI and they a Student Pilot's license.

If I had to talk someone down I would prefer that they listen and perform actions as I dictate, and not be up there pushing buttons.

Taking this outside the cockpit have you ever tried to help someone with a computer problem over the phone? How much easier is it
when someone who thinks they know what they are doing, pushes "buttons" on the computer without telling you? Same deal, thus I
would rather have someone who knows nothing and will follow my every word then the guy who thinks they know more than they do.

As for your fictive scenario, we will never agree until the day a simmer gets the chance to prove themselves. I for one pray that we never
have to find out. Sure you may have a 30 second hero, then again you may not. I will agree that someone is better than no one, that is
clearly unarguable. Just the who will be a source of disagreement.

Finally, if you read closely I did put simmers into two categories. Unless you fit the first category then you have nothing to be offended by,
just realize that some of your brothers have already made a name for you, and thus my hesitations toward the entire lot.

BTW: We will always fight the image of "Overpriced bus drivers." Piloting is a profession.



Post Edited ( 10-31-08 14:42 )

[relichd]

KenG wrote:
Bottom line when I am in command of an airplane it is my license on the line if a FAR is busted. On a flight where passengers are being
hauled, nope sorry, no non-pilots will touch the controls. Justified to say that there are specific rules that prohibit that.

Of course, I wouldn't expect you to act otherwise. Still, please try to see it the other way - no pilots with proper knowledge of the procedures
and/or the rules

KenG wrote:
Taking this outside the cockpit have you ever tried to help someone with a computer problem over the phone? How much easier is it when someone who
thinks they know what they are doing, pushes "buttons" on the computer without telling you?

Trust me, I did it sooooo many times and there's nothing worst than a user who doesn't know the difference between a left- and right-click... It's
much easier when that person on the other side knows some basics so that I do not need to explain how to start the file explorer or hold the mouse...

KenG wrote:
As for your fictive scenario, we will never agree until the day a simmer gets the chance to prove themselves.

Agreed

KenG wrote:
BTW: We will always fight the image of "Overpriced bus drivers." Piloting is a profession.

It really depends... Personally, I hold real pilots in very high esteem. In fact, everybody who's doing his/her job professionally earns my
appreciation. But you're right, there'll always be people who can do nothing but s*itting around and doing nothing of a value...

KenG wrote:
Finally, if you read closely I did put simmers into two categories. Unless you fit the first category then you have nothing to be offended by,
just realize that some of your brothers have already made a name for you, and thus my hesitations toward the entire lot.

Well, that's the mankind's worst habit, I'd say... Generalising based upon a smaller (or bigger) number of bad experiences and not to
read/understand what's been written properly..... Sad but true

[Cydon Prax]

Aye. I'd have to agree with KenG for the most part. As I said, I've seen kids, students, and parents totally crash an A320 Full Flight Sim. I've
also seen children half my age and cocky Flightsim pilots land the A320 with one engine torn off the wing and a wet runway. I will say
through my experience with giving tours and monitoring students lessons in the sim that those who don't know what they are doing 9 out
of 10 times crash.

I remember I was in the right seat and a middle aged parent was in the right. I departed the plane from Pheonix, and gave her controls
(It's a sim, who cares right?). She quickly lost control, despite my vocal input of how to fly level, and the plane rolled inverted and shortly
crashed. I also found most people don't even touch the rudders in the plane - unfamiliar with it or not sure how to get used to it from an FS
Joystick.

I think, however, my best story in the A320 sim is flying a visual with a tour group behind me and a co-worker, stalling the plane on
approach and crashing because we had been working on fixing the thrust levers that we had just replaced. Ofcourse the
parents/students behind us didn't know that, so it was kind of embarrassing to hear one of the girls there say, "What are your names?
That way I know never to fly with you."

lol. I hear a sim instructor pilot has a ''kill list'' of pilots he's destroyed in the Full Motion Sim in Pheonix. Seems even the pro's can crash
once in a while.

[relichd]

Cydon Prax wrote:
"What are your names? That way I know never to fly with you."

[AeroJim]

I guess I have a couple opinions on the matter, I am a real world pilot.

1: All pilots need to know is how to take-off, land, and push A/P

2: The scenario: if the plane is going to go down or has an emergency and all they have is a simmer, has never happened, may happen, but I doubt it to
the point I would put my life savings and future earnings on the line.

I guess that's all I got.

[SkyAirWorld]

Or fly like the old days, and do some by hand

Always fun to have a go with the charts and do it all by hand once in a while....



(and relichd it was not my intention to stick with anyone....... pilots argue all the time, we dont always take sides )

[relichd]

SkyAirWorld wrote:
pilots argue all the time, we dont always take sides

good to know

[KenG]

Cydon Prax wrote:
lol. I hear a sim instructor pilot has a ''kill list'' of pilots he's destroyed in the Full Motion Sim in Pheonix. Seems even the pro's can crash
once in a while.

Yes I have crashed a Level D full motion simulator and embarrassing enough a BE20. There are some scenarios built into the system
that are guaranteed killer scenarios. Many of the micro-burst scenarios are that way and we practice them at 20 to 40% of their full
strength as a full one would swat a King Air out of the sky with very little chance of escape. Then there are the stupid pilot tricks which
happens from time to time. (Stupid because we know better.) Finally, the simulator is a good place to try out various techniques that pilots
have stated over the years such as instead of using rudder and aileron to correct for a crosswind landing maybe try asymmetric thrust.
Sometimes that leads to very bad outcomes.

The sim is there as a training tool and is an excellent opportunity to introduce emergency procedures that a pilot does not normally see
on a regular basis. i.e. we are good at single engine landings, but when was the last time you dead sticked a King Air? Then there is the
CRM piece where you have a camera pointed at you and your co during the flight and when you are done everyone gets to watch the video
with you and critique your CRM. Many people concentrate so much on CRM their first time they forget their primary job is to manage the
flight deck.

So yes, my name is on more than one box operators "kill list", but I am a better pilot for each an every scenario that I have gone through
and while I may have cussed the OPR that day I am thankful for the workout. Besides, if you are getting beat up really bad on your eval
then you know you are doing good. The standard eval is a cake walk for a competent pilot.



Post Edited ( 11-02-08 07:19 )

[Cydon Prax]

lol Ken. So true - I've had my share of Frasca myself. Good points though, i'll try and remember those words of wisdom as I move forward in my career.

[AeroJim]

Ken buddy, you really should relax at the board a little bit, it's weird when you take everything so serious and we're tryin to have a good time.

[TristenEugene]

The biggest diff 'tween sim and the real thing is: Fear of the FAA.



Post Edited ( 11-03-08 12:56 )

[KenG]

AeroJim wrote:
Ken buddy, you really should relax at the board a little bit, it's weird when you take everything so serious and we're tryin to have a good
time.

With topics like:

A veeeeery close one
Plane crash at Lukla
accident in LEMD!!
Crash at Heathrow
68 killed in Kyrgyzstan plane crash

You will need to tell me how that is not "serious" and just having a good time.

Aviation is in fact a very serious business where the slightest mistakes could be devastating. There is no "reset flight" button in the real
world, you have to live with the decisions that you make.

Now if you please this Grinch is tired of this rat race. I am not going to slap you on the back and tell you "if you believe" you can do
anything. I leave that to your Ma and Pa. I'll let you know the cold hard facts which is when you grab the yoke in a real airplane the lives of
everyone on-board are in your hands.

Now how well did Microsoft Flight Simulator prepare you?

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTaebj2Nz0k

Listen to what is said after the crash. He though he knew what he was doing as well.



Post Edited ( 11-04-08 08:04 )

[xhado13]

Ouch.

[SkyAirWorld]

KenG,

I see from your signature you have helicopters mentioned..

Are you more of a Fixed Wing? or Rotorhead?

Which did you do first?

Whats it like in comparison?

__________

As you can clearly tell, I have recently been looking at Helicopters a little more, a mate offered me a few lessons in exchange for me giving
him a few lessons in fixed wings.....

[AeroJim]

Kenly,
I am in fact a real world pilot and did spend a lot of time as a UND pilot until $$ drove me away, or lack thereof, yes you have more
credentials then I, but don't lecture me about real world flying and simming. I've done both, I know the difference.
Obviously, aviation accidents/incidents are very serious matters of course, but this forum is not and every time you log in I notice a new
lecture about aviation and aviation safety, as if the members of this forum did not already know that plane crashes are bad!? Novel thought!
Fortunately, as you have drilled into the heads of many forum members, CFI's don't train student pilots through an on-line class, you can't get
flight hours or even sim hours in Microsoft FS. And you can't log ground training time from a forum, so why are you throwing lectures at this forum?
When they decide to drive to their local FBO for their first flight, they will start to learn how serious being the PIC really is. This forum
is a nice place where real-world pilots like Joe and I and many simmers can come and relax, throw jokes around the table, talk about drinking, joke
about simming, throw up nice pictures. In my opinion, sir, please save the lectures for your students.
Now don't get me wrong when I hear your stories and advice I think it's a great chance to learn, as pilots always are, but most of the time I'm
not learning when I read your post lately, I feel like I'm being scorned or slapped with a switch for talking during class.



Post Edited ( 11-05-08 17:50 )