We think we know what we're doing...

[AeroJim]

Joeflyer wrote:

AeroJim wrote:
I flew a Jetblue ERJ sim and it was awesome, i had a great landing. Smoother than my girl's, well anyways.

I want to see your end of flight report, sonny I bet your girlfriend spanked your a-- on the landing

We didn't get to log the hours because we weren't rated for the ERJ. otherwise I'd have proof for ya.

[AeroJim]

I will say this though; my flight instructor told me that there were 3 types of students:
1. Students with no prior experience in planes, sims, anything, just been inside a cockpit or two. (these are ok students)
2. Students with flight sim experience that think they can translate everything from mfs to real world flying, these are the worst students
and finally, what i was
3. Students who take very basic lessons from flight sim and trust the rest to the instructor. Flight sim is good for learning what a VOR is, an ILS,
etc. It's also good to learn what the gauges are and how to read them. Etc. But for PPL you need to know a lot of maneuvers, to try to get experience
with these through flight sim is horrible, its actually a downfall if anything.

[lcrane]

AeroJim wrote:
I will say this though; my flight instructor told me that there were 3 types of students:
1. Students with no prior experience in planes, sims, anything, just been inside a cockpit or two. (these are ok students)
2. Students with flight sim experience that think they can translate everything from mfs to real world flying, these are the worst students
and finally, what i was
3. Students who take very basic lessons from flight sim and trust the rest to the instructor. Flight sim is good for learning what a VOR is, an ILS,
etc. It's also good to learn what the gauges are and how to read them. Etc. But for PPL you need to know a lot of maneuvers, to try to get experience
with these through flight sim is horrible, its actually a downfall if anything.

Oh. I agree with you whole heartedly. And now that I'm working on my IFR flight simulator has helped me with my scan. I'm just saying that someone
shouldn't say "I fly flight simulator so I should be able to fly in real life without any training from an instructor". That thinking will get you killed.



Post Edited ( 11-29-07 03:49 )

[relichd]

This topic is very old but I hope you don't mind if we "resurrect" it a bit

***

I'd say if it's up to a situation where both pilots are incapacitated and there's no Hollywood-movie stewardess able to land nothing smaller than a
nice 747, I'd believe that (after making that big damn thing into your pants) you'd probably get up from the chair with a single thought: "If I f*ck
it up, we're all doomed. If I don't try, we're all doomed anyway." But there's still a chance that being under radio supervision and having a flight
sim experience could save your and other passengers' lives.

If you buy an aircraft add-on, most of them say "certified/approved by real world pilot" so I guess you get pretty good idea how to handle the most
important avionics instruments then you should be ok from the most part of it. Or would there be any pilot who would approve something that is far
from being a plane? Of course, the instrument location and design is the big issue but - honestly - heading/speed/altitude dials/displays work and
look almost the same...

If you take your flight simming seriously enough then you certainly learn about the three forces, how to make a turn, how to climb or descend, deploy
flaps, extend gears, etc. You buy the yoke, rudder pedals, throtlles and other avionics modules. You learn procedures for your favourite plane. Would you really not be able to recall your knowledge in situation like this?
At least something?

***

I've sat in a real Boeing 737 simulator once. At a first sight you are amazed by the number of annunciators, knobs and all the stuff like this. But
after a while you get used to it and - supposed you've seen a cockpit in flight sim before - you start to realize that you know some of the things and
you start to be more confident with cockpit's "whereabouts". And you start to think "I can do it!" and you see how wonderful it is!

BUT! And that "but" is a big one: the major role in this is case your psychic endurance. Not many people can stand the fact having around two hundred
passengers behind their back... I had a chance to talk to real world pilots, they all say "you must not think of the numbers but just the plane"...



Post Edited ( 10-20-08 02:14 )

[KenG]

Just think of it this way. How would you like it if I came to your work and started telling you that I could do your job as good or better than
you based off what I read on the Internet and practicing your job at home on my personnel computer?

There is such a thing as PCATD (http://www.flyelite.com/index.php) of which Microsoft Flight Simulator is not. MSFS is a game, however
besides that it can be used as a tool as well. Some tasks can be learned while others cannot. The FAA has approved devices that meet
certain requirements to count for a portion of flying hours toward a certificate. A portion does not equal all. Type rating in a Level C or D
device is different in that the pilot already has proven his ability (Private and Commercial) to control a real airplane. Type rating is a test of
system management and understanding as well as crew management.

Passengers who I don't know in the back has never bothered me ( I have flown Ambassadors, Secretaries, Royalty, and many others),
peers in the back puts the pressure on you, family in the back brings the pucker factor to it highest level. Nothing is worse than landing a
little firm then when your wife is in the back.

People who pay money to fly certified simulators pay for entertainment. No matter how good or bad you are you paid for entertainment and
the company, regardless of who they are, wants you to feel good about your experience so that you will either come back again or tell
others about your great experience and they will come and try it out. The Captain that said you flew better than he could have was paid to
tell you that. Besides being labeled as the guy who can fly the heck out of the sim is not a good thing in professional aviation.

I love aviation and it is my passion. I am fortunate to be able to go to a job that I enjoy and to have a desk in the flight levels. Not so many
people are as luck as I. For those who can not I will happily share the virtual skies with, chat with you on-line, provide encouragement if
you choose to pursue a real license, and for a few I have even taken them up. But, please leave the real driving to me, I have two decades
of training and experience. I am good at what I do and I am proud of it.

[Jason]

Having touched the stick of a small GA aircraft and never having any lessons, and having a billion (gross exaggeration) FS hours I can
say that RL flying is very different. Your awareness of your surroundings is completely different, you can feel your execution, which is
better but lol you might get sick if you suck.

Well anyway what I'm meaning to say is that I could definately take radio instruction better than someone who's got no RL or FS
experience at all but would I be any better at flying? um probably not.

[relichd]

KenG wrote:
Just think of it this way. How would you like it if I came to your work and started telling you that I could do your job as good or better than
you based off what I read on the Internet and practicing your job at home on my personnel computer?

You could or you couldn't. You would find out once you come and try

Anyway, I believe that no post here is aimed to say that pilot's job is an easy one. We all just "theorize" of "what if" - I'd say it's rather a
dreaming of flight simming enthusiasts than serious statements (including my own)....

You know how it is - if everybody could do everything there would not be pilots, medics, teachers, you name yourself And frankly I'm happy for
we're not all those "almighty" guys at all

[Brian Whitt]

This is coming from someone who had logged almost 250 hours on VATSIM before sitting in the Varga VG-21's of Barnstorming Adventures in San Diego, CA:

My 23rd birthday had come and gone with the gift of an hour in an airplane under the instruction of a CFI; when I met with the CFI about a month after
my birthday he asked what flying experience I had. I told him that I had numerous hours of FS time and had finished my PPL class not long ago. He
gave me that cocky "I'll show him" smirk and we loaded up for what would end up being an hour and a half of flying. He let me handle the taxi,
run-up, and take off (20 whisky to the south I think it was) and much to his suprise I handled the aircraft "like I knew what I was doing already" (he
told me after the flight). When airborne I demonstrated all the controls to him and he then leaned his head against the canopy and proceeded to take
a nap while I flew around the valley; since I didn't have a map I made the newbie mistake of almost flying into KSAN airspace but a call from Center
got us/me back on track and into a flight following, which also impressed the instructor because he thought I had no idea what to do.
Long story short by the time I landed (oh yes, he let me land it) he looked at my fiance and said, "He was made for the sky." Never had I felt so
confident and proud of myself.

My point:

I learned some stuff from FS that translates to the real-world but the only thing I can think of that didn't was the reality of the situation and the
g-forces that I experienced. Maybe other people/wanna-be pilots can too.

[Launchbury]

The only big difference I found between RL and FS is the knowledge of consequence for you actions. For instance if I want to depart and
tower gives me 28R but it's all the way on the other side of the field and crammed with traffic, I'll just skip over to 1L which is a lot closer
and just ignore tower - in flight sim. In real life, of course, I'd sit in line, looking at the Hobbs meter clicking over and draining my bank
account.

You get out of FS what you put into it. If you want, you can buy the realistic 152 or 172 from Flight1, buy yourself a sectional chart and a
pilot's operating handbook for your plane from the internet, fly on VATSIM, follow all the airspace rules, fly your plane by the number etc.
For me it really wasn't a difficult transition between FS and RL. I honestly believe that if the situation ever came up where a person with in-
depth FS experience (not this jump in the cockpit on the runway and rotate at 160 knots with 15 degrees of flaps bullshit) had to fly and
land a plane in real life it could be executed safely. I think the determining factor of that situation would be the self-confidence of the
person at the controls.

[pegase]

I think we under estimate the psychic and physiologic factor between real and simulation:

Almost every body is able to walk on a 10 centimer wide line painted on the floor.

If it is a 10 centimeter wide truss at 1 meter high, it will be very difficult for some of us to walk on it.

If this 10 centimeter wide truss is at 30 meters high... IMPOSSIBLE for most of us...

In another domain, playing a sonata quiet on our home piano is one thing,
playing it in a meeting with some tenth of peope around is qite different,
and playing it in Carnegie hall...

Useless to try "not thinking about" if you know it, you think about it like it or not.

The physical impact: when flying uncoordinated or with excessive G-forces, on FS we just hear our co-pilots and passengers screaming.
In real, we would be screaming ourselves and get unable to do anything usefull.

Flight simming is certainly great to help in training, giving some theorical basics about flying and radio phraseology when flying on
networks.
But getting able to fly in real with just FS training??... I don't believe that.

[Launchbury]

Ah, but like I said, you get out of FS what you put into it. It's no secret that the modern airline pilot is more systems manager than anything
else - learn that system and you're over halfway there. If you've put time into learning the Level-D 767 there's no reason you shouldn't be
able to work the real thing. I'm not saying you'd be doing a perfect job, but once you let ATC know that you were in an emergency they'd
give you a block altitude and the autopilot would happily chug along just like it always has. You'd bet your sweet ass there'd be an expert
on the horn with you telling you what to press and when - including the autoland which would take care of the only really tricky bit.

Think back to the first time you drove a car - did you drive it into a pole and blow it up and burn down the neighborhood? No, you didn't.
There's no reason to labour under the dellusion that once you touch the yoke on an airliner it's going to stall in and spin.

The Mythbusters did an interesting episode where they (in a full-motion simulator) were able to be "talked down" by a controller to a safe
landing and neither of them have flying experience, not even the thousands of hours of FS experience that many of us have.

[KenG]

Launchbury wrote:
The Mythbusters did an interesting episode where they (in a full-motion simulator) were able to be "talked down" by a
controller to a safe landing and neither of them have flying experience, not even the thousands of hours of FS experience that many of us
have.

1. they had a chance to practice in the simulator the first time around
2. they had no preconceived ideas as to what they were suppose to do thus they were 100% reliant on the voice on the other end
3. they landed a perfectly working airplane the real crux is can a non-pilot land an airliner that has been damaged.

Like everything with the show you have no idea what happened off camera, i.e. how many times did they get to try landing without
instruction and thus gaining greater feel of the airplane.

There are however documented cases of persons who have safely brought in small airplanes (Cessna and Piper sized) by being talked
down on the radio so thus if you can talked down in a small airplane I don't see why an experienced fs pilot can't successfully land a
Cessna or a Piper.

In real life when landing you only get one chance to get it perfect the first time around.

[relichd]

pegase wrote:
I think we under estimate the psychic and physiologic factor between real and simulation:

Almost every body is able to walk on a 10 centimer wide line painted on the floor.

If it is a 10 centimeter wide truss at 1 meter high, it will be very difficult for some of us to walk on it.

If this 10 centimeter wide truss is at 30 meters high... IMPOSSIBLE for most of us...

In another domain, playing a sonata quiet on our home piano is one thing,
playing it in a meeting with some tenth of peope around is qite different,
and playing it in Carnegie hall...

Useless to try "not thinking about" if you know it, you think about it like it or not.

The physical impact: when flying uncoordinated or with excessive G-forces, on FS we just hear our co-pilots and passengers screaming.
In real, we would be screaming ourselves and get unable to do anything usefull.

Flight simming is certainly great to help in training, giving some theorical basics about flying and radio phraseology when flying on
networks.
But getting able to fly in real with just FS training??... I don't believe that.

I agree with your point on the psychological issues. But I believe you're comparing incomparable. You will not walk the 10cm line 30mts high if you're
not forced to. You wouldn't play in Carnegie Hall if you're not forced to. Etc.

All the time we talk about a situation where you are FORCED to take the plane because you're the only one on-board having some "experience".

[pegase]

relichd wrote:
All the time we talk about a situation where you are FORCED to take the plane because you're the only one on-board having some
"experience".

OK, should the 15cm width line be my only hope to save my a$$, I would at least TRY. Same for the plane's yoke.

Now, what would be in % the chance of success?
Probably higher for someone having FS practice but in which proportion? would need anyway an uncommon cold blood.

[relichd]

pegase wrote:
OK, should the 15cm width line be my only hope to save my a$$, I would at least TRY. Same for the plane's yoke.

Hey, you've just added another 5 cms to that magic line width!

pegase wrote:
Now, what would be in % the chance of success?
Probably higher for someone having FS practice but in which proportion? would need anyway an uncommon cold blood.

Agreed. Cold blood and at least average language skills (suppose you're flying over a foreign country) and Flight Sim experience (let's just say you
really take it seriously) give you a nice chance to land safely... But I'd better not speculate on the percentage