We think we know what we're doing...

[KenG]

The real issue is there are two types of people who I have run into since I have been posting first on Compuserve and then on the general
Internet.

1. Those who already think they know everything and will not even listen to real world pilots, because they read on the Internet someplace
or in their thousands of hours in MSFS they have determined that something is a fact.

2. Those who are truly interested in aviation and want to learn from real world operations and take multiple viewpoints into consideration
and formulate a situational awareness of all things aviation.

The problem is I have ran into so many of the first type of people over the years that I would never let a person whose only experience has
been computer simulation and are home taught near the controls of an aircraft that I am in command of.

If I ever end up on an airplane in trouble I will allow the pilots who are trained and proficient in the type of aircraft to handle any emergency,
that is their job and I would expect the same of them when I am in command. Should the unlikely "Hollywood" scenario happen which is
far fetched and highly unlikely I would prefer a rated and trained pilot take the controls over a home brewed self taught "gamer". Should
there be no pilots on the back of the plane then you should find someone who is calm, collect, can take directions very well, and has no
preconceived ideas about what they are getting ready to have to do. Most likely a flight attendant would be a better candidate then a
computer gamer.

It is unfortunate as some people look to MSFS as a tool and not just a game, but too many are cocky, self indulgent, self proclaimed
experts. Personally I wouldn't want to have to try and talk down someone who is up there punching buttons because they think they know
what they are doing. But, given someone who understands the layout of the flight deck and is willing to follow instructions to the letter then
I could work with that sort of person.

Then again if the airplane is operating fine then I would allow the autopilot to do most of the work while I got the airplane setup and if so equipped allow a Cat IIIc landing.



Post Edited ( 10-25-08 04:21 )

[SkyAirWorld]

KenG wrote:
It is unfortunate as some people look to MSFS as a tool and not just a game, but too many are cocky, self indulgent, self proclaimed
experts. Personally I wouldn't want to have to try and talk down someone who is up there punching buttons because they think they know
what they are doing. But, given someone who understands the layout of the flight deck and is willing to follow instructions to the letter then
I could work with that sort of person.

Ok, I'll enter here... I agree whole heartedly KenG

MFS people really do beleive that if they can do it in this simulator they can do it in the real world...

NOT A CHANCE!


(I'll remove my little rant haha)



Post Edited ( 10-26-08 01:53 )

[xhado13]

Well I do agree to the people who say it isn't possible.

But I mean, I'm not gonna lie I am pretty proficient with the LDS 767.

The question is IF it ever happened, on a 767, would you rather have someone completely inexperienced, or someone who has had several hundred hours
down on the 767 on MFS? I know, it sounds stupid but I'm pretty sure you'd pick the 2nd one.

I know for a fact the feeling is completely different, but like mentioned above as long as you have someone on the horn guiding you down, and you know
what the BASICS are, your chances I'm sure are higher.
Obviously it's not gonna be perfect, we all know that.

[detpilot]

Realistically, if given all the information- a VERY proficient flightsimmer, used to high quality add-ons, MIGHT be able to program the autoland. If
the flaps were lowered incrementally with the autopilot on, and he was able to figure out the tactile things (Pull the gear handle out to let it down,
how to move the flap lever past the gates, etc), AND there was a Cat III approach nearby, AND he could read the plate, AND figure out how to
communicate to ATC and follow instructions, AND there was a pilot on the radio available to answer all questions.... He could possibly get the
autoland and autobrakes to get the plane down.

That's about as wild of a statement as I'll make... I teach people to land every day (Have 2 students hopefully soloing tomorrow, if they show
consistency and good judgment again). Trust me, it's NOT easy for a novice. It's not stroking our ego, the fact is, we were ALL there. I remember my
first landing, and I was an AVID flightsimmer 5 years ago when I did my first flight. It was NOT pretty...

[SkyAirWorld]

What was supposed to be my first solo landing ended up being a go-around, now well I'm pretty sure my landings are much more
proficient

[detpilot]

What was supposed to be my first solo landing ended up being a go-around, now well I'm pretty sure my landings are much more
proficient

Good job! As an instructor, nothing makes me happier than to see my students decide to go around if it doesn't look good. Especially in our tail/prop
strike prone aircraft



Post Edited ( 10-30-08 05:37 )

[Cydon Prax]

I work with the Level-7 Airbus A320 Simulator down at Embry Riddle. I also do tours for parents and students when the school is doing off
day stuff. I've seen pilots with 300 hours fly it, I've seen 50 year old parents with no experience fly it, and I've seen 8th graders fly it. And it's
surprising what you learn.

I'm not going to tell you it's impossible to get down this A320 Simulator if you're not a proffessional type rated pilot for it. What I will tell you
is people who have taken the course for it (Which isn't that good, mind you) and know the systems and how the plane works get it down
and up proffessionally every time.

The parents who try it crash every time. The mechanic who enjoys aviation but never flew also crashes every time. The proffessional GA
Pilot with 300 odd hours with a multi and sea addon get confused, overspeed the plane, and otherwise do what would cause them to die.
As for the happy 8th graders? Out of the 7 groups I've seen go in and play around - most of them landed the plane on or near the runway.

What I find most gets people with complex airplanes is their unfamiliarity. I fly the LVLD763ER, flew PMDG 744/736 before coming down
to Riddle or reaching even 100 flight hours and was caught off guard. The simulator is just unfamiliar territory. What I see are pilots on
final approach. They know where the gear and flap levers are, they know where the autopilots and FMGS are, they understand the
principles, speed limits, and PAPI lights.

They reach to lower flaps, pull on it - and nothing happens. They try and lower the gear, yet the lever won't move. They try to tell the AP to
hold 150 knots and end up pushing the switch or pulling, doing the opposite of what they wanted. Or maybe they'll look out the window
and be surprised in the 3 and a half seconds they looked out their airspeed already climbed into the red and they're now tearing off flaps.
The thing is, in flight sim the airplane is represented differently. You see the runway, your HSI, your PFD, and your AP panels all in 20
inches of goodness. In the plane, its all seperate. Most guys find it difficult to transition to scanning large area's - especially if they only
had to shift their eyes an inch back on their PC.

Most PC pilots also don't know how to work the flight controls. On the PC, they left or right click - thats it. In the plane, you pull the gear
lever to you, then down or up. You push the autopilot switch in for the computer to choose a setting, or pull for you to select the setting.
You scan larger, quicker; all of this unfamiliarity hits every single LVLD763ER freshmen that jumps in. Ofcourse, some guys are quick to
get familiar, and actually *listen* when one of us says how to work the equipment - even if they are familiar from 550 hours in the Wilco
A320, and manage to fly the plane on one engine, one flap, in a thunderstorm following just an ILS Glideslope.

Still, a lot of people are killed rather quickly or destroy the plane in flight. The thing is, i'm just watching them from a Level-7 Sim. I could
only imagine how hard the real life pilots have it.

________

Edit: Just thought I'd say that despite my activity in such a cool friggen sim, I don't pretend to have the knowledge or skillbase to complete a single Commercial Airline flight without real training. The moment you start working with OOOI times and Dispatchers, Instrunment Charts and busted equipment forcing you to ask if your ameable, you'd better have months of groundschool time.



Post Edited ( 10-30-08 07:09 )

[SkyAirWorld]

Thanks Brandon

Didnt think the owner of the plane would be too happy with me...errr.....mutilating his B58

[DSW334]

I must concur with what pegasuse wrote.. It's easy to do when there is no risk involved (simulator). But as soon as the risk increases
other things come into play. Did you enjoy your first parachute jump after seeing numerous jumps on tape? You probably screamed the
air out of your lungs when you jumped out and realized you're going down.. Then once the parachute unfolds you relax a bit more.. But it's
only for the second or third jump that you jump relaxing.. (if at all possible)

So imagine you're mid-air and all of a sudden the F/A comes on the comms and ask for somebody with flying experience? Do you think
you are going to stand up confident and say: Hell.. I can land that 747 better then the pilot who had a multimillion training? Probably not.
You probably get scared and **** your pants.

And how was your first flight on the simulator? Were you able to get that cessna down safely? Heck, I know it took me quite some tries
and at least 7 different brand new cessna's. not to mention 7 new virtual pilots.
And how about your first driving lesson? Did you drove all by yourself, following the commands of the instructor, without him grabbing the
steering wheel? (I know I was glad I had an instructor with me, who hit the brakes because I totally overlooked a bus coming from the left
without stopping to let me go first )

Does it mean it can't be done? Perhaps in perfect flying conditions with a fully autoland capable airplane that is still on the autopilot when
you take over the controls, you can get talked down. But chances are you probably end up short of the runway, or overshoot, or slide of the
runway.. Landing is a critique phase of the flight, which so much going on in and out of the cockpit. You might get down, but something
will go wrong.

[Launchbury]

DSW334 wrote:
So imagine you're mid-air and all of a sudden the F/A comes on the comms and ask for somebody with flying experience? Do you think
you are going to stand up confident and say: Hell.. I can land that 747 better then the pilot who had a multimillion training? Probably not.
You probably get scared and **** your pants.

No. I would sack up and do the job. Let's break this situation down for a minute:

First: who is on the plane? Let's say that every other passenger on the aircraft besides you has ZERO flight experience - real world or
simulator. You have been taken to the flight deck by a F/A to do your best. Being of sound mind, you keep a F/A with you in the cockpit to
read checklists to you and help out, because you are well aware that the workload is going to be beyond your capacity to manage at
times.

Second: what is the objective? If both pilots died the inevitable outcome would be that the plane would eventually run out of fuel and fly
into a hillside or something, killing everyone onboard. The objective, therefore, is to achieve an outcome more desirable than the one
mentioned if there was no input by you. Crashing in a manner that kills everyone except one person is, therefor, a more desirable
outcome, and could be deemed a success, though is not the "success" we will be shooting for.

Third: What are the factors working against you? You are in an unfamiliar environment controlling an unfamiliar aircraft with unfamiliar
feelings going through your body to your brain. The lives of hundreds of people rely on you alone - though this could become a factor
working for you if you are the sort of person who works well under stress (as it does for me - it sharpens my mind and allows me to really
dig deep into myself physically, emotionally, and mentally, giving me reaction, thought process and judgement I would otherwise not be
capable of attaining); if you are not the sort of person who handles stress well, this will be a definate handicap.

Fourth: What are the factors working for you? Because you will be in an emergency situation you will need to deal only with the most
elementary factor of flying, which is manipulating the controls. Forget about talking to ATC, forget about following a STAR and forget about
airspace restriction - none of it will matter in a situation like this. Now, many of the first pilots in the world learned how to manipulate the
controls of an aircraft on an as-you-go basis. You push forward, you go down this much, you pull back, you go up that much, etc. The
human brain is VERY well adapted to calculating movements like that. It's what helps us hit a baseball or throw a football to a running
receiver. MOST importantly, through your thousands of hours of Flight Sim time, you've learned to coordinate your movements; you can
utilize the yoke with one hand, the throttles with the other and push the rudder pedals with your feet. Now assuming that for whatever
reason you can't autoland, you still have autothrottle so that rids you of one heavy chore already. Lastly, let's say you've mastered this
aircraft (we'll call it the 737) in FS using the highly realistic PMDG package. You know instinctively where to look for your speed. You know
where your altitude is going to be displayed, you know what it means when you hear that computer voice say "GLIDESLOPE!" KenG
argues that he would want someone without any sort of predisposed assumptions as to what's going on - I say I would rather have
someone who doesn't have to guess what the "two white handles in the middle" do.

So, for a realistic argument on this case:
Your approach won't be pretty - chances are you'll be all over the GS and the LOC, but you could probably stumble on down to the runway.
The landing will be no greaser - chances are you'll blow out most of, if not all of, the tires, touch down either frighteningly long or
horrifyingly short on the runway - you might even slide off the side of the runway. That would probably collapse the gear, rupture a fuel
tank and catch the plane on fire. Even if that killed HALF of the people on in the plane, I would certainly consider that to be a monumental
success and would laud the pilot as a hero. (Remember, the outcome we're shooting for is better than everyone on the plane being
killed.)

Now as a rebuttle no KenG because his derisive attitude has nettled me so:

No one is saying that a FS trained pilot could ever do as good a job as a trained pilot. No one is "showing up to your job saying they could
do as-good-as-or-better-than" you. You claim that people who think they can fly based on FS training are "Cocky, self-indulgent" types -
well after all my many years of FS training, I first took the real skies years ago, taking off, flying, landing, talking to ATC just as I did on
VATSIM, without the instructor needing to put his hands on the yoke - though he did for 5 minutes because he said he was "bored - you
know too much!"

Ken, I would consider YOU the cocky, self-indulgent one, for thinking that, oh, only you and the other pilots in all their hundreds of hours of
training could POSSIBLY fly an aircraft. You undercut the amazing talents and abilities of the human race as a whole and the ability of
people to adapt to new situations.

As for your statement that you would "never let a person whose only experience has been computer simulation and are home taught near
the controls of an aircraft that I am in command of," well, sir, I call you an idiot and that is my opinion on that matter.

[KenG]

I withdraw everything, CLEARLY you gamers know everything and can do anything.

Why we real world pilots will waste years of study and tens of thousands of dollars when you can do the same thing with a $50 piece of software.



Post Edited ( 10-31-08 12:36 )

[relichd]

KenG, I don't see the point in your last post. WE ARE DISCUSSING THE EMERGENCY WHERE NOT A SINGLE PILOT SURVIVES AND THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION THAN
SOMEBODY - WHO IS JUST A SIMMER - TO TAKE CONTROL!

Sorry for "shouting" here but it seems that not everybody got the time to read through what we're really talking about.

And I agree with Launchbury. I wanted to post it here the same way he did but I did not want to cause erruptions on this forum. I believed a calm
course of action would do better than saying "you real pilots know everything and let everybody know that in your specific way!" Doesn't this get you
into that not-so-nice position of cocky and self indulgent people? No offence, just a thought of an ordinary but by-all-heart dedicated flight simmer

[relichd]

KenG wrote:
I withdraw everything, CLEARLY you gamers know everything and can do anything.

Why we real world pilots will waste years of study and tens of thousands of dollars when you can do the same thing with a $50 piece of software.

KenG, it's not about we know everything. We don't and we do not hesitate to say that. What insults ME (and perhaps the others too) is pure inability
(or maybe just no will from whatever reason) to accept the conditions of fictive scenario and discuss that in a polite way without saying that flight
simmers are just freaks without in-depth knowledge of real aviation. We certainly do not posses the knowledge you've earned during your long time real
world experience but that does not mean we have nothing to say either...

If real pilots are not about to give advices to this discussion in a way that is not offensive to flight simmers there'll CLEARLY always be situations
like these. We come here to discuss, not to kill each other by inadequate reactions We'd like to keep it fun as this is what it means to us. And
dreaming of extreme situations - however unlikely they are - is just another part of our hobby...

[SkyAirWorld]

I know what KenG is talking about...
and also, yes fair enough SOME of the MFS simmers out there, MIGHT be able to sufficently put an aircraft down on the ground with
instruction in the event that there was no other pilot aboard...

Every Pilot I know, myself included does take offence, and I can see this is probably why ken is flaring up a little bit, we spent either
thousands of dollers, and thousands of hours into becomming a pilot and remaing a pilot... or worked our a$$es off in either the Millitary
or in some cra%py little go no where Charter/ RPT airline to be trained up for free under a lock in...

We work for our money, and when simmers come out and say "oh we could do it" it sort of cuts our legs out from under us....


Fair enough, a simmer probably has an advantage over an average person onboard an aircraft who knows nothing about planes... but its
all terminology here people...

I can see where Kens comming from, but seriously mate, calm down a little bit, I've been in the industry for years, from props to jets... and
to be honsest I'm not really phased by this.... I got over people thinking a pilots job is pi$$ easy years ago... or that just anyone could do it
etc

Simmers are just more experienced than the average person (to an extent) but.... hell what do I know?

[relichd]

Nobody says it's an easy job - at least not here in the forum. If you have that kind of experience while talking to somebody who does not even
recognise propeller from jet, then it's another story...

Also, there's nobody doubting all your efforts (time, money, private life). Even us - flight simmers - have an idea how complex piloting an aircraft
is. What I was saying is that we all should respect each other and if you feel offended by somebody just say that to that one who did so. But do not
return the same way to public, putting us into one bag...

You see, your response just shows that you pilots will stand together no matter what... I can understand that, I would be mad too anytime
there's someone saying "I can do your job as easily as you do" without proper experience and knowledge. But I am not reacting like "hey, you're really
crazy. It took me ages and $$$ to learn that. How could you do it without even knowing what's this all about?" Instead I am trying to talk not to
offend... But that's a little