FS Passengers is just so so.

[DanSteph]

Ryanamur wrote:
Now, about the pull down problem. Whether FsP needed to be integrated into FS2004 or not is a philosophical question. Phil

sorry it's a technical question... there is no way to do what FsP do without a program that is completely integrated
in Fs2004 as FsP look a lot of Fs2004 value 10 time per seconds.... without those value how could it judge your flight ?

Also for me byoung falled in a common trap (I read also a lot of other forum and know what people say about FsP)

1-first people don't read the feature page, they make their opinion mainly based on the name "FsPassengers"
and what they "guess" FsP can make.
2-some people are not far from truth but some other are completely wrong and mistaken about whats do FsP.
3-once a first opinion done it's hard to change (the brain technically search all small indice to REENFORCE an opinion not to demote it)
4-FsP give it's full flavor after some flights only, so if someone is completely mistaken at first and do one flight it will be hard
to make him change his mind and actually SEE what FsP do...

conclusion: the next version will be named "WRXTRGFH the addon that will revolutionize"

Anyway, nothing to say that i'm not very pleased about such post with such title on the first page of my forum,
as beta tester know well I'm very open to any critisicm (look the support forum) but not about such post that judge my hard work without even knowing what it exactly do, also I can sustain a debate but visibly "byoung" just posted and left the forum without looking the
reply. so if he don't come back soon I'll close it as it just look as an uninformed critisism based on a guess.

Dan



Post Edited ( 08-09-05 00:21 )

[eazy]

It was annoying to have to stop the sim and select the FS Pax options.

you still have to divert attention to the menu outside of the basic cockpit

There are exactly 2 situations where you have to use the menu:

1. when you start an FSP-flight (that means: you're on ground, parking brake set, engines off)
2. when you end an FSP-flight (that means: you're on ground, parking brake set, engines off)
... not much of a divertion, really ...

the disadvantage is you can't off load that process

why should one?! I'd never do that. Removing the process is removing the fun

I really couldn't tell if what FS Pax changed had an impact.

I fly the F1 ATR for several days now and didn't notice any strange behaviour caused by the modified aircraft.cfg. Ok, you have just 7 seat rows left... just put the rest of the pax in rear cargo. They won't complain



Post Edited ( 08-09-05 00:08 )

[rfbarber]

If there are any users of Voice Buddy and FsP (such as myself), you will know that most, if not all, of the keystrokes may be enabled
by voice command. I use several vocal commands ("Departure Ground, Departure Tower, Departure, Enroute, Approach, Approach
Tower, Arrival Ground" results in an autotune of my preset frequencies and wav files, "Serve Sandwiches/Drinks" starts the
meals, "Passenger Music" starts/stops the taxi wav file... etc.).

Can life get better than this? I submit that it cannot, pending the release of the next version, or obtaining a PPL so you can do it for real.

[byoung]

First , Dan let me say you did a great job on FSP. Based on your explanation I see your point about integration. I still don't see why it
couldn't be a standalone utility instead of integrated. What you can update inside you can update and read from outside. That is the
whole point behind FSUIPC and the MSFS SDK.

Many other applications are written that way, so that processes can be off-loaded to another computer.

>>why should one?! I'd never do that. Removing the process is removing the fun <<

You are totally confused by removing vs off-loading. All of the stand-alone add-ons that support FSUIPC are located on one machine. So
you don't have to leave FS to check the weather of your destination with Active Sky, for example. IT
IS THE ONLY WAY TO FLY in my opinion. The flight data is set and read over a network by FSUIPC / WideFS. Each one of these utilities,
especially external ones, take up resources on the main flight sim computer. Less resources = lower FPS, especially when FS 2004 is
extreamly CPU dependent.

Pete Dowson is probably one of the most efficient proformance minded developers in the flight sim industry. WideFS is really awesome.
You don't need a PC equivalent to your flight sim PC because it is just running interfaces and a program that pipes the flight data via
FUSIPC. So the investment can me minimal.

As far as FSP, My take (aside from the economics features) is:

Load Passengers, Cargo and Fuel with the loader feature of FSP, kind of cool. All A/C payware developers should do this internally in FS!

Give the passengers drinks and food to make them happy, OK I am a pilot / flight attendant now making that vital decision whether to
serve food and drinks What's next in-flight conversations between passengers and the pilot? Hey mister passenger, you think I should
track this VOR radial, or maybe the ADF this time, just for fun? (I know I am being a little sarchastic of course )

Land and get an in-flight report (pay and rating). Again pretty cool, and if you like the economics, then this might be a good product for you.

Now the emergency or trouble aboard the flight might be interesting. However this would require thorough knowledge of your A/C
emergency procedures. Does FSP know EXACTLY how the pilot should respond emergency wise on each aircraft? Or does it just
monitor basic flight information G forces, and airspeeds, maximums flight characteristics including stress, etc on each aircraft?


Currently, I get paid (virtually) through my VA now and it tracks all the flights as well. It doesn't do the A/C maintenence or economic piece,
but typically the pilot doesn't get involved with the economics anyway, except the flight management piece, using less fuel, taxiing with
one engine, etc.

Sorry folks, for the price of the package, I am going to pass on this one. Again, I think Dan is a gifted developer and has done a great job
on FSP. I don't want anyone to be offended, especially Dan. This is just my solo opinion. Thats what makes forums a great asset for internet communication and freedom of speech! And forums like this where you can give an honest opinion.


Take care!

Barry



Post Edited ( 08-09-05 02:13 )

[Captain Binkles]

conclusion: the next version will be named "WRXTRGFH the addon that will revolutionize"

I'm so looking forward to upgrading this Dan.

Is it Weather Traffic Girlfriend?

[DanSteph]

Ah cool, you're back, we can debate

byoung wrote:
First , Dan let me say you did a great job on FSP. Based on your explanation I see your point about integration. I still don't see why it
couldn't be a standalone utility instead of integrated.

Because probably 90% people but possibly more use Fs2004 standalone on one PC only.
Also writting an external program would piss those 90% people that wan to run Fs2004 in full screen
without switching constantly. FsP CAN be used with wideFs or any other program, as stated previously
you don't need the menu at all in flight, all functions are accessable by keyboard shortcut, so 100%
(well 99.40% without you are pleased: those that want to use it on one PC only and those that want to use
it in a network. Even with wideFs you still have a joy and keyboard connected to your main PC and as FsP
is really FPS friendly there is no problem to run it on the main PC. If you don't like keyboard, just assign
FsP key to your joy and you can serve food or dring and declare an emergency with one finger.

byoung wrote:
The flight data is set and read over a network by FSUIPC / WideFS. Each one of these utilities,
especially external ones, take up resources on the main flight sim computer. Less resources = lower FPS, especially when FS 2004 is
extreamly CPU dependent.

Sorry but I have to disagree on this one, the first things I was doing when starting FsP one years ago was
to write my own "FSUIPC" to explore Fs9 data, the extraction of data HAVE an impact on the performance,
they don't come by themself the code have to extract them and send them. Also the proof is that well coded
an application doesn't have much impact: FsP have exactly 50'400 line of code and I can hardly see any
framerate loss on my old P4 1.7GHZ.
BUT given the amount of data FsP need 10 time per second it would be a dumb idea to make a FsP
throught a network... and a nightmare to code, also you missed that FsP doesn't only grab data from Fs9
but also modify the data (see failure, keyboard input for com and lot of other things)

byoung wrote:
Load Passengers, Cargo and Fuel with the loader feature of FSP, kind of cool. All A/C payware developers should do this internally in FS!

Give the passengers drinks and food to make them happy, OK I am a pilot / flight attendant now making that vital decision whether to
serve food and drinks What's next in-flight conversations between passengers and the pilot? Hey mister passenger, you think I should
track this VOR radial, or maybe the ADF this time, just for fun? (I know I am being a little sarchastic of course )

Land and get an in-flight report (pay and rating). Again pretty cool, and if you like the economics, then this might be a good product for you.

Now you list three feature, I can also say that skiing is dumb because you just goes up/down but that's missing the point,
FsP have much more things, an ATC chatter, map flight recording, co-pilot announce , crew, the abilities to allow you to
enter com/nav/AP heading-altitude- speed-/transponder/altimeter/decision height/ by keyboard... no more pain clicking
on panel you type C121.90 and your com1 is set on 121.90 with co-pilot voice. The report are all kept and really more
appealing than Fs9 logbook, also all those flight count for your pilot's career and your company. Features really doesn't
stop here but I'll not list all of them, they are all on the screenhsot section of this site and in the doc.
(perhaps you missed also that you CAN run a company without economic mode?)

What I think you missed and will try to explain below (remember english isn't my mother language)

When I first took my real flight lesson especially during my first solo , the main difference that I found with the simulator
was that my life was in my hand, that any action that I can make could have really bad consequence, I can even die if I
made bad mistake.. So you pay more attention to things you feel RESPONSIBLE and completely AWAKE (might be better lol).

Also you get a lot more stress due to that and your mind doesn't function as when your comfortably on a chair
watching screen. You do an important things.

When I go back to home and have to stop my real flight because of lack of money my intterest for Fs2004 dropped
by 2000%... not because of the view, not because of the flight feeling but because no one would care anymore if I
do a looping with a 747, pull 5 G with 354 passengers behind me or dive like a kamikase before landing.

I would be able to log 1000 hours in Fs2004 while flying like a dumbass, how would does hours have any values ?
You can crash 50 time and still be proud of your 1000 hours "hey I'm DA man I know take-off and landing"

Also while nobody care and you don't have much to loose you miss an important things of real flight: humain factor.
thousand pilot died because they were late and could not sustain the pressure and forgot some important things,
thousand payed with their live because they could not sustain a stress with a problem aboard and keep their head clear
for important things.

THIS is the main point of FsP, beyond all the feature listed THIS is what is FsP made for.
now you can't just take-off do whatewer you want and land and call this a success,
you have to fly in a manner that would not hurt your passengers nor your aircraft, you must log hours
of course but all those hours should be done nicelly, as real pilot do with a feeling of responsabilities.
Not only for your satisfaction (the brain tend to forgot the "litle 5G that I pulled here - hey I landed it's still a success!")
but also because everyone will notice it and piss you for the "litle 5G"

You can read some testimony on the site "had a bird strike on take off.... crashed on landing" why ?
because FsP goal is reached: Pilot had some stress because they were in concern about their career
and they bypassed some important step, so you can touch a bit of the real flight feeling:
"Damn ! bird strike said the co-pilot, engine flameout...well... first the plane, speed , attitude, what's
next ? yes.. quiet with flaps, we don't want to damage them... now declare emergency... the crew announce that
ok .. passengers are scarred but at least they all have seat belt now... quiet with the stick, speed,
attitude, remember dissimetricall thrust, keep energy , ok easy now easy...... gentle with brake, reverse, ok ...
shut down reverse, we don't want to damage them... pfuuuu... safe... passengers applause... wow ! 1500 pilots points"

In brief you will be much more proud of your safe landing because you managed your stress
and was doing much more than simply landing your aircraft: you kept your passengers comfortable
and alive.

Also some other testimony: "was late - dive like a made got penalty - company reputation went down"
Nobody can say in Fs that he never took some freedom with reality with a bit of diving "hey I was a bit high"
but as none notice, finally that's not bad.. and you'll forget this dive easilly: your flight was a BIG sucess...you landed.

And last but not least: too much pilot end with aircraft gallery trying all aircraft available , because after a while
Fs9 can be boring, there is no goal, nothing to reach but your hown satisfaction (based on your biased mind
about your performance -don't say no, this is humain-) no one to please.

So now: can you log hours flying in a way that will please your passengers ? can you make a career without those
"litle 5G" and without the "litle dive because I was a bit high" ? I bet when you reach 1000 hours they will not
have the same value than without FsP.

Hope it explain a bit the goal of FsP ?... As you see I can speak about FsP during hours but I have to work to
enhance it...

As conclusion I will say that not all people are the same and fly for the same reason, I can understand that some
may be bored by FsP -taken that they understand fully what it does- but imho you missed the point,
try it again for free and try to run a career, can you make 10 flight perfect ? and most important : are you sure
you have the same reponsabilities feeling if you fly without FsP ?

But again, you might not like that, all taste are allowed of course... but I would preffer a title as "I don't like FsP"
than "FsP is so so" imho FsP reach its goal and do it well, "FsP is so so" mean more that's it's badly done.

Dan



Post Edited ( 08-09-05 04:50 )

[webdancer]

DBE wrote:

Ryanamur wrote:
Of course, you could also cheat and have the pax buckle their seat-belt for the taxi.

Hey Phil,

You didn't really mean this, did you? I mean, have you ever taxied w/o the seat-belt sign on?

Thats funny, I was just about to ask the same thing. It just goes to show you. . . Look before you leap. Or some such crap.

[jboweruk]

Nicely put Dan, and in such a nice inoffensive way too. Even I didn't really think of it like that and I love FSP to bits, I guess I always did
care about ppl (real or otherwise) so this was an unconcious thing anyway, but what you said really makes sense, you do care about
what happens now, every flight (just as in a real aircraft) I'm wondering now what may go wrong, if it does all go off will I be able to cope (I
only ever had 2 engine failures on planes that simulated that and crashed both times) so it does make you a much better pilot, having to
remember the little details as well; 10000' Landing lights on/off.

No FSP not so so, FSP= best add-on for FS.. EVER. Well done Dan.

[Ryanamur]

webdancer wrote:

DBE wrote:

Ryanamur wrote:
Of course, you could also cheat and have the pax buckle their seat-belt for the taxi.

Hey Phil,

You didn't really mean this, did you? I mean, have you ever taxied w/o the seat-belt sign on?

Thats funny, I was just about to ask the same thing. It just goes to show you. . . Look before you leap. Or some such crap.

and it goes to show you that everybody can make a mistake

[Ryanamur]

Great post Dan.