FSP for VA pilots

[LukeJGerst]

Hey all,

I like FSP, but haven't been flying it for at least a month for two reasons. (The other one I'll post later in Tech Support Forum). One reason
is that in my VA, I fly a lot of different planes with entirely different files, in respect to their tail numbers. It gets very difficult to make one
flight pay off the plane in FSP before I move on in my schedule! However, I would like to still be able to manage the other finances.
Perhaps the option could be included to "lease" a plane? As in, a slice of the plane's cost is charged you for every flight? I'm not sure if
this idea strikes anyone else as up to par, but I thought I'd give it a shot.

[poden]

Do you fly with a single plane in your fleet at a time? If you used a fleet, you income would be a lot higher, allowing you to buy/sell planes a lot
faster.

Personally, I wish FSP had a more realistic economic model. Yes, of course we've all heard about how its purpose is not to provide a VA, blah, blah,
blah. But an economic model where aircraft were leased or financed, and elimination of the "multiplier" would be nice.

[LukeJGerst]

Well, I don't like the idea of starting with 500 mil, since that's more than even my VA has for funds! (We have virtual finances). Buying
sufficient aircraft to pay for purchasing, say, a 757, in one flight would take more cash than 500 mil anyway, I'd think.

[Jetflyer]

We have already talked about eliminating the multiplier as being pointless. For god's sake, only one person can build the company, and has to buy all
the planes, that would be bloody unrealistic. Get some sense. It's a game.

[poden]

Jetflyer wrote:
We have already talked about eliminating the multiplier as being pointless. For god's sake, only one person can build the company, and has to buy all
the planes, that would be bloody unrealistic. Get some sense. It's a game.

There is no reason FSP couldn't contain a complete VA economic model other than the fact that Dan didn't want a team of programmers instead of just
himself doing the code, and/or didn't want the development to stretch a lot longer (both very admirable and understandable reasons). It certainly
would be possible to manage a VA AND fly individual flights if FSP were expanded, and yeah it would still be a game.

[DanSteph]

poden wrote:
There is no reason FSP couldn't contain a complete VA economic model other than the fact that Dan didn't want a team of programmers
instead of just himself doing the code, .

It doesn't work like that, if you add two programmer your program isn't twice better, even worse, the more you add
the more the project is likely to crash or become confuse and unplayable unless you are all employee from a company with a
boss that give the direction and a regular income.

From my years of freeware I didn't saw any team that have worked well and that have made better add-on then those made by
one "illuminated programer". More often they are complicated, unconsistant, with a lot of bug and...unfinished. (because everyone
in the team rant at all other because no one have the same idea of the finished product or want to be leader or don't like xx or zz or...)
Notice this is for the team that worked during sometime, 95% I saw crashed even before starting anything consistent...

Programming is an ART... not a wall paintjob work...

Also for me FsP have already a LOT of feature, perhaps even too much...
you can't make a game FPS RTS SIM and all in same time you have to stay consistent.

Chocolate is good as lemon and ketchup, it's not because you add them all in a glass that you end
with a very good drink.

Now let's see a complete economic model... employee pay ? insurance ? bank managment ? other flight managment ? (IA)
where do I stop ? either it remain simple as it is now and you fly all the time... either it's complex
and you'll spend half or more time managing money, bank, employee pay, other aircraft flight etc etc.

This is not at all the idea I had for FsP, basically FSP was made to add the feeling of responsabilities
when you fly it was not meant to be a tycoon at all. The simple economic mode is here to give you also
this feeling of responsabilities, it's your pilot skil that increase your company result not your manager abilities.

Now of course you would say that I can add the tycoon as an optionnal things for those that want...
but a complete tycoon alone is as much complicated as FsP himself, mean one years of work again
and two different program in one for the same price. Why not adding also excell abilities, and word, and
a First personal shooter and a complete OS finally ?

I'll add a tycoon to FsP when Quake will have a complete employee and bank managment

Dan



Post Edited ( 11-02-05 05:53 )

[Sovek]

Dan, you... you... you created orbiter???? I had it at one point, didnt do much with it as it was waaay over my head.

[Jackal]

DanSteph wrote:

poden wrote:
There is no reason FSP couldn't contain a complete VA economic model other than the fact that Dan didn't want a team of programmers
instead of just himself doing the code, .

It doesn't work like that, if you add two programmer your program isn't twice better, even worse, the more you add
the more the project is likely to crash or become confuse and unplayable unless you are all employee from a company with a
boss that give the direction and a regular income.

From my years of freeware I didn't saw any team that have worked well and that have made better add-on then those made by
one "illuminated programer". More often they are complicated, unconsistant, with a lot of bug and...unfinished. (because
everyone
in the team rant at all other because no one have the same idea of the finished product or want to be leader or don't like xx or zz or...)
Notice this is for the team that worked during sometime, 95% I saw crashed even before starting anything consistent...

Programming is an ART... not a wall paintjob work...

Also for me FsP have already a LOT of feature, perhaps even too much...
you can't make a game FPS RTS SIM and all in same time you have to stay consistent.

Chocolate is good as lemon and ketchup, it's not because you add them all in a glass that you end
with a very good drink.

Now let's see a complete economic model... employee pay ? insurance ? bank managment ? other flight managment ? (IA)
where do I stop ? either it remain simple as it is now and you fly all the time... either it's complex
and you'll spend half or more time managing money, bank, employee pay, other aircraft flight etc etc.

This is not at all the idea I had for FsP, basically FSP was made to add the feeling of responsabilities
when you fly it was not meant to be a tycoon at all. The simple economic mode is here to give you also
this feeling of responsabilities, it's your pilot skil that increase your company result not your manager abilities.

Now of course you would say that I can add the tycoon as an optionnal things for those that want...
but a complete tycoon alone is as much complicated as FsP himself, mean one years of work again
and two different program in one for the same price. Why not adding also excell abilities, and word, and
a First personal shooter and a complete OS finally ?

I'll add a tycoon to FsP when Quake will have a complete employee and bank managment

Dan

best answer i ever read! i agree with Dan... as we all must really. this product is his vision and i think it's a bloody good product! it's
simple to use without being boring which is an extrememly rare quality in a product. that would all get lost in a tycoon type venture, and
besides... there already are airliner tycoons out there...

[DanSteph]

Sovek wrote:
Dan, you... you... you created orbiter???? I had it at one point, didnt do much with it as it was waaay over my head.

Naaahhh Orbiter is the creation of the good Dr Martin Schweiger PhD
I'm modestly only the author of the sound add-on for Orbiter (wich don't have sound without it)
and the DGIII a faaabulous spaceship that pushed orbiter one step beyond at the date
it went out and that is somewhat the ancestor of FsPassengers...
see this page:
download: http://orbiter.dansteph.com/index.php?disp=d
DGIII : http://orbiter.dansteph.com/index.php?disp=dgIII

the DGIII's panel:


I've programed also some 3d game in my life but they were never published.

Dan



Post Edited ( 11-02-05 09:04 )

[LukeJGerst]

Ok, ok, I guess then I'll have to decide between my VA and FSP. Thanks for your time, Dan!

[DanSteph]

LukeJGerst wrote:
Ok, ok, I guess then I'll have to decide between my VA and FSP. Thanks for your time, Dan!

Ah sorry I was answering more to poden.

the only way I think for you if you still want the economicall
mode is to start with big money... but you said you don't like
starting with big $$$ so sorry I don't know any solution.

Dan

[jboweruk]

Why choose between them?? Are you perchance selling the old aircraft when you buy a new one? If so don't, that old plane can still earn
you money. Admittedly I don't fly for a VA anymore, I fly my own airline, but the fun is in trying to earn enough to buy a bigger and better
plane. At the moment I'm in the UN flying Hercs into warzones, but once that storyline is over my pilot will move to a fledgeling airline with
little or no money.

Don't forget you can create a scenario to increase/decrease the multiplier, failures etc. So really no need to choose between Livewire
and/or FSP, use both, and create a scenario that allows this.

[bdlong]

I also fly for a VA, but I don't have a problem with the "financial" aspect/conflict.

I started out with 25million dollars, student pilot. Flew the mooney until it was paid off, then bought a B58 twin. By that time, I had enough hours
to fly the twin. Kept the Mooney so I was still receiving income from it. Flew the B58 until it was paid off and bought the next cheapest plane that
my VA flies - DHC3 Super Otter. Flew it until it was paid off. By flying until it was paid off, I would have a minimum of the 25 million that I
started with, but I am also continueing to earn income for the previous planes that I purchased and are paid off. At the present time, I'm flying a
King Air 350. I should be able to have it paid off with one more flight and I presently have 30million "in the bank". My next step is either the
B1900 or the Citation Bravo, (can't remember which one is the cheapest). So far I have the following planes in my company, all except the Mooney are
flown by my VA: Mooney, Baron, DHC-3, DHC-6, King Air 350. It will take me a while, but eventually I will "own" every plane that my VA flies. This
has added a new challenge to my flying.

I have over 500 hours with my VA, and I have to admit, it was starting to get a little boring. FSP has brought the excitement back to it for me.
Between the failures, descent touchdowns being recorded, keeping enough money for repairs in the bank and being
"graded" after every flight......

it has gone from J U S T a flight sim to a game with an attainable goal.

Dean

[poden]

DanSteph wrote:

poden wrote:
There is no reason FSP couldn't contain a complete VA economic model other than the fact that Dan didn't want a team of programmers
instead of just himself doing the code, .

It doesn't work like that, if you add two programmer your program isn't twice better, even worse, the more you add
the more the project is likely to crash or become confuse and unplayable unless you are all employee from a company with a
boss that give the direction and a regular income.

From my years of freeware I didn't saw any team that have worked well and that have made better add-on then those made by
one "illuminated programer". More often they are complicated, unconsistant, with a lot of bug and...unfinished. (because everyone
in the team rant at all other because no one have the same idea of the finished product or want to be leader or don't like xx or zz or...)
Notice this is for the team that worked during sometime, 95% I saw crashed even before starting anything consistent...

Programming is an ART... not a wall paintjob work...

Also for me FsP have already a LOT of feature, perhaps even too much...
you can't make a game FPS RTS SIM and all in same time you have to stay consistent.

Chocolate is good as lemon and ketchup, it's not because you add them all in a glass that you end
with a very good drink.

Now let's see a complete economic model... employee pay ? insurance ? bank managment ? other flight managment ? (IA)
where do I stop ? either it remain simple as it is now and you fly all the time... either it's complex
and you'll spend half or more time managing money, bank, employee pay, other aircraft flight etc etc.

This is not at all the idea I had for FsP, basically FSP was made to add the feeling of responsabilities
when you fly it was not meant to be a tycoon at all. The simple economic mode is here to give you also
this feeling of responsabilities, it's your pilot skil that increase your company result not your manager abilities.

Now of course you would say that I can add the tycoon as an optionnal things for those that want...
but a complete tycoon alone is as much complicated as FsP himself, mean one years of work again
and two different program in one for the same price. Why not adding also excell abilities, and word, and
a First personal shooter and a complete OS finally ?

I'll add a tycoon to FsP when Quake will have a complete employee and bank managment

Dan

I'm fully aware of the choices and tradeoffs one has to make when developing software/simulations; I've done it most of my life. I'm just saying FSP
COULD have a more complete economic model if you had wanted to include it, along with all the features its currently got. The tradeoff for that would
of course be a more complex, error-prone, and difficult to maintain application. I'm certainly not criticizing any of the choices you made in the
development, and I certainly enjoy running FSP as it currently exists. I just want people to be aware that economic features, such as they are, like
the fleet multiplier, are there by CHOICE, and could just as easily have ended up completely different.

[LukeJGerst]

Thanks Dan. I understand the bind I put you in, congrats for wiggling out to the satisfaction of both sides.

Whoa, there John, don't smoke me! I just like realims, and don't think it's quite realistic to buy new planes for Fsp for every flight. But
then again, who says it's realistic to jump back and forth across the globe for my VA every flight, so maybe that's the solution I'll use.
Anyway, I hope to be a hub manager soon, so lots of my flights will probably be with the same planes, from the same airport.

Thanks everyone!