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+--- Thread: Flight Level Altitudes (/showthread.php?tid=16991)
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Flight Level Altitudes - jlaporte - 16-06-2009
Just a stupid question from somebody who doesn't know much.
In the US the flight altitude are as follow 360 to 179: odd+500 and from 180 to 359: even+500ft.
I have no problem with that but what with the wind for exemple without wind I'm flying a ground track of 003 degree
but with wind to fly this
ground track I need a heading of 357 degree.
For the altitude should I use the heading of my ground track or should I us the heading of my airplane?
:Edited the general posting as well as the topic title due to this question not being VFR but FL related. TR:
Re: VFR altitude - Flt Lt Tony Hill - 18-06-2009
Hi Mate,
I'll bite...it is your ground track that matters. This is the same for any radio calls of course... "departed at 45, on climb to 3500, **tracking**
010 for Perth"
.
Re: VFR altitude - jlaporte - 18-06-2009
Seems logical to me too. Just wanted to make sure. Thanks for the answer.
Re: VFR altitude - AeroJim - 20-06-2009
Sorry, this is incorrect, it's your magnetic heading. Also, if you're flying below 3,000' agl, you can disregard this rule.
Re: VFR altitude - Sam Breese - 20-06-2009
Quote:AeroJim wrote:
Sorry, this is incorrect, it's your magnetic heading. Also, if you're flying below 3,000' agl, you can disregard this rule.
Aero Jim is quite right, all headings are based on magnetic track and not your heading. "The Quadrantal Rule" is flown between the transition level,
which in the UK is 3000ft up to FL245 where there after the semi-circular rule is used. At the transition altitude, you swap your pressure setting
from QNH or QFE to the standard pressure setting aka. 1013mb (2992i nHg)
The main thing that hasn't been noted that it's mandatory for all flight flying IFR in IMC to operate to the Quadranral rule and it's only recommended
for VFR flights.
Also the Quadranral Rule only applies outside controlled airspace. In class G/ The open FIR you are pretty much free to roam at any height you like so
long as you follow rule 5 (the low flying rules). Inside controlled airspace you will receive a Radar Control Service and the chap in his room will
put you where you like.
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=4&Itemid=11.html
That link is from the UK AIP which is basically the rule book for all flights in the UK.
NOTE - These rules follow the UK rules. Those Yanks have different ideas and the Flight Sim reflects all this aka Request Flight Following. We have
none of that Bull@hi! in the UK
Re: VFR altitude - jlaporte - 20-06-2009
Ok so if I understand correctly and in reference to the exemple in the very first post of this thread if I want to fly from point A to point B
without wind I would have to get a heading of 003 and fly let say at 7500 ft (US VFR semi circle rule) but because of the wind, to fly this
ground track, I have to fly a heading of 354 and therefore fly at an altitude of for exemple 6500 ft?
I do know that VFR altitude are not mandatory but let say I want to do it.
Re: VFR altitude - AeroJim - 21-06-2009
Sam, we also don't have user fees (yet)
Re: VFR altitude - Sam Breese - 21-06-2009
Re: VFR altitude - Sam Breese - 21-06-2009
Quote:AeroJim wrote:
Sam, we also don't have user fees (yet)
Re: VFR altitude - Flt Lt Tony Hill - 22-06-2009
Quote:jlaporte wrote:
Ok so if I understand correctly and in reference to the exemple in the very first post of this thread if I want to fly from point A to point B
without wind I would have to get a heading of 003 and fly let say at 7500 ft (US VFR semi circle rule) but because of the wind, to fly this
ground track, I have to fly a heading of 354 and therefore fly at an altitude of for exemple 6500 ft?
I do know that VFR altitude are not mandatory but let say I want to do it.
Jeremy,
To answer your question (and explain), as I said in my first post it is your -track- across the ground, not- heading.
Assume a wind from the east sufficient to force a lay off of 10deg drift. Assume also, two aircraft, one tracking 000 and another tracking
180. Under AeroJim's assumption both aircraft will be at the same altitude and head on! ie.., the compass -heading- of the southbound
aircraft is 170, the northbound aircraft 010 so BOTH are in the same hemispherical height category.
If -track- is used they are in opposite hemispheres as should be the case. BTW, the height above which this applies -is- 3000ft but
good airmanship dictates that it is applied even below that altitude. Being "legal" and dead from a collision is not much consulation in my
(log)book.
So in your example you will fly at the same altitude regardless of wind. Between two set points the altitude requirement will not vary from
today to tomorrow.
See below for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_(navigation) amongst many others for the difference between true heading, magnetic heading and
track.
.
Post Edited ( 06-22-09 09:38 )
Re: VFR altitude - jlaporte - 22-06-2009
Mr Hill,
Thanks for the answer again that make more sense to me to use ground track than heading because like in your exemple if altitude was
base on heading and wind then the altitude on a route would change all the time according to winds in a specific area.
Re: VFR altitude - AeroJim - 23-06-2009
Here, it is NOT the ground track, it is the magnetic course, as cited in the FAR's
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-159-FAR.shtml
Sec. 91.159 - VFR cruising altitude or flight level.
Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight
more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC:
(a) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and --
(1) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 3,500, 5,500, or 7,500); or
(2) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 4,500, 6,500, or 8,500).
(b) When operating above 18,000 feet MSL, maintain the altitude or flight level assigned by ATC.
[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-276, 68 FR 61321, Oct. 27, 2003; 68 FR 70133, Dec. 17, 2003]
Re: VFR altitude - AeroJim - 23-06-2009
Also, under 3,000' agl there is no point to follow the rule, this is not good airmanship, Never have I been told this, under 3,000' agl you're going
to run into a lot of sight-see'rs, a lot of traffic, a lot of ultralights, etc.
Re: VFR altitude - Flt Lt Tony Hill - 24-06-2009
Quote:AeroJim wrote:
this is incorrect, it's your magnetic heading
Quote:AeroJim wrote:
It is NOT the ground track
Firstly, there is -no- need to -shout-. If you wish to conduct a civil conversation with me, I suggest you find another way to add emphasis.
Secondly, please consult a navigational reference for a definition of "course" vs "heading",... for convenience only (heaven forbid I start
quoting internet sources as gospel). :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_(navigation)
Vis:
Course
"In navigation, a course is the intended path of a vehicle over the surface of the Earth". (my emphasis)
Heading
"Heading (2) is the direction the vessel, aircraft or vehicle is truly "pointing towards" " (Badly worded, I would have said "the direction in
which the aircraft or vessel is actually pointing...........but it -is- only wikepidia, after all!)
The FAR's quite correctly refer to -course- which -is- ground track.
"a) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and --
(1) On a magnetic course " (again, my emphasis)
A cursory examination of any navigational text will confirm this. You will note that the UK standards quoted by Sam above refer to track.(he says you are right but then contradicts you in his quote of the regs)
I see you make no comment as to my example and the inherent problem with your interpretation.
Quote:AeroJim wrote:
Also, under 3,000' agl there is no point to follow the rule, this is not good airmanship, Never have I been told this, under 3,000' agl you're
going
to run into a lot of sight-see'rs, a lot of traffic, a lot of ultralights, etc.
Funny, in 15 years of navigation around a State which is roughly 5 times the size of Texas, I have always been advised to apply this. I
guess opinion and the quality of advice and instruction, vary greatly.
I would have thought that the possibility of "running into" a lot of other aircraft was exactly the point in maintaining good airmanship by
following hemispherics...how exactly does ignoring them increase your safety under your example? The fact that some/most others
may not be doing the same does not make it bad airmanship to follow hemispheric rules! In the end result the Mk 1 eyeball and understanding and following rules/good airmanship proceedures, is your primary defence.
My final suggestion to anybody who wants to follow real world proceedures is to get a good navigation reference, read the definitions and
become familiar with them then work through the excercises.
best regards
Darryl
(edited for spelling....11.40 local)
.
Post Edited ( 06-24-09 05:38 )
Re: VFR altitude - AeroJim - 24-06-2009
Hill, I've been here 5 years, you've been here a month, no need to try to lecture me, I've dealt with all the pilot know it alls like yourself that
believe they know everything, i haven't yelled and let's use the proper phraseology for a new pilot, not ground track, magnetic course, as stated in
the FAR's, as cited above.
Also, if you've flown in Alaska, where you don't deal with much traffic in the 1st place besides maybe Anchorage, possibly Juneau. In the lower 48
the most time you'll get at one altitude below 3,000' agl is roughly 10 minutes, less on weekends. Following hemishpherics below 3,000' agl doesn't
do a thing for you, and it definitely doesn't have an impact on your chances of an accident.