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Question - Short Routes - xvxmatthewxvx - 22-10-2005
Hello.
I have a question about short routes and altitude. Such as between Tokyo and Osaka I know they use 747's for that. The route is so short
less then 150NM. What would be a correct cruise altitude for this? I always felt like im doing something wrong here. I would go to FL250 only for a short route like this. Is that correct? Any real world pilots or people with knowledge can give any input? Thanks
Post Edited ( 10-22-05 18:40 )
Re: Question - Short Routes - kvuo - 23-10-2005
150nm, I figure more like FL180-210.. my opinion.
Re: Question - Short Routes - SWAFO - 23-10-2005
What the hell? Why would any airline in their right mind use a 747 for a 150NM route? I think you're misinformed about this (or I am!). Do
you have a link with facts backing up this claim? Most airlines would use (at the largest) a 737 series aircraft for that short of route. Even
that length of flight is very short for a 737. Here at SWA our shortest route would be KRSW-KMCO (it's 125.0 NM... I just flew it a few days
ago... got to visit our new airport; KRSW). That flight is planned to take 45 minutes (although we have a flight of around 150NM from
KAUS-KHOU that is planned at 35 or 40 minutes... yet it's longer). For that particular flight, I was cruising at 11,000FT. Definetly the
LOWEST cruising altitude ever for me!
A flight of around 150NM (for example, the KAUS-KHOU route) would be flown around the 13-17,000ft range. It varies based on enroute
conditions, RVSM direction, etc. It could be lower or higher, however that range of altitude is appropriate (at least for a 737). I would think
a 747 would cruise at even a lower altitude (because of the fact that it's heavier, and can't cruise economically much higher... especially
on such a short flight).
Re: Question - Short Routes - kvuo - 23-10-2005
japan, man. they use monster passenger versions of all kinda 747's for commuter style routes. I think boeing even made a B744 with
no winglets just for ANA, specifically because of this type of usage.
Re: Question - Short Routes - SWAFO - 23-10-2005
I still couldn't understand an economical usage of a 747 for such a short trip. Technically, it would be more financially wise to use 4
737's departing at the SAME time! (It would cost less than the operation cost of one 747 on such a short route)! I still think this story
sounds bogus... that is until I see some proof. "Japan, man" Is not proof enough for me.
Re: Question - Short Routes - Dutch64 - 23-10-2005
Quote:I still couldn't understand an economical usage of a 747 for such a short trip. Technically, it would be more financially wise to use 4
737's departing at the SAME time!
Hmmm, i think the runways are not wide enough for that....
Would be nice though, you can wave all the flight to the ppl in the other planes.
Re: Question - Short Routes - TonyH - 23-10-2005
Brad, they certainly do use 747's on short routes in Asia. I have flown Narita - Osaka on a 747, all economy class, over 500 pax ! I've also
flown from Kuala Lumpur to Singapore on a Singapore Airlines Megatop 747-400. That's also a short route.
Some of the Asian airlines don't have anything but wide bodied aircraft, A330's, 777's, 747's etc.
Re: Question - Short Routes - xvxmatthewxvx - 23-10-2005
LOL Swafo, its true. I know for the Tokyo (Haneda Airport) to Osaka Intl they use a 747 (domestic version with no winglets. As a poster
said Boeing made a special version just for them of their 747). Its called the "Tokyo-Osaka Shuttle Flight". I really don't know why also. I
love flying virtually with Japanese airlines cause I don't feel silly or feel its unrealistic using a 747 for short flights.
As one poster said "Its Japan man" and thats true. Only there you can fly a 747 in the shape of a blushing whale for such a short route.
Anywhere else (Example using a 747 between JFK and Boston...... just wouldn't "feel right" LOL)
Anyways I hate going to airline websites and trying to find out what plane they use for this or that. So I'll just point you to a encyclopedia
entry at wikipedia that talks about a famous crash of a 747 travelling from Tokyo to Osaka by JAL (Japan Airlines).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_flight_123
Edit: I have the "Tokyo-Osaka" shuttleflight from Aerosim. I never tried the adventures for it. (The PMDG is a little hard for me at the moment.) I just tried the "Observer" mode for it for a "Shuttleflight" with a 747Domestic. In that mode You hear the pilots and the ATC and traffic speaking in Japanese and English through the whole flight. You don't even need to do anything in observer mode, your job on the flight is just arming the speedbreak and operating the gear LOL. If this flight is based off of reality.... they seem to take off like a rocket almost at 3000FT per min climb to FL260. You get to FL260 in about 10-15 minutes. Hold altitude for about 30 mins. Then decend at at about 1500FT/min. LOL perhaps thats why its called the "Shuttle flight".
Post Edited ( 10-23-05 20:05 )
Re: Question - Short Routes - SWAFO - 24-10-2005
I'm still skeptical
I will be until I fly on a 747 the next time I travel to Asia (I have yet to GO there even once, so who knows when that will be!)
Re: Question - Short Routes - biddy - 24-10-2005
Brad
I have just looked on the JAL website they fly 21 flights a day between Tokyo and Osaka with one flight a 734 and one an MD81 but the
rest are all widebodied including 4 a day using a 744 and 6 a day using a 773.
Re: Question - Short Routes - poden - 25-10-2005
Doesn't surprise me. If you keep the range short, the fuel you don't need to carry results in a big increase in passenger/load capacity. It may
actually be fairly economical.
Re: Question - Short Routes - Ionathan - 26-10-2005
Apart fronm this, in real life, you have to consider other parameters like increased passenger numbers on specific periods and
unavailability of small aircrafts. An Airline may have a 747 available for a 1 hour flight but not 4 737s.
However, I think that Olympic Airways, had done the shortest Jet flight in history. I think it was back in early eighties when they used a 737-
200 for a 10 minutes flight between two islands. One airport could be seen from the other with a pair of normal binoculars...
For those who know Greece the flight was between LGKF and LGZA. Considering the time for check-in, boarding etc. a fishing boat
would arrive faster...
Re: Question - Short Routes - SWAFO - 26-10-2005
The "shortest flight ever" was discussed previously. I remember it only being a few minutes long!
Re: Question - Short Routes - Jetflyer - 26-10-2005
Flight lengths and altitude I use in a jet:
<100nm = 14,000ft
100 - 149nm = <18,000ft
150 - 199nm = < 26,000ft
200-289nm = < 28,000ft
290 - 349nm = < 32,000ft
> 350 = 32,000ft or higher
Post Edited ( 10-26-05 16:52 )
Re: Question - Short Routes - pagir - 26-10-2005
Hey, Brad, everyone knows JAL is using 747-400D made for the japanese domestic flights.
It sit up to... 628 pax. http://www.zap16.com/civ%20fact/civ%20B747-400.htm
They can't use two 737: Their airports are too crowed to allow twice the number of plane on the tarmac and on the ruNways. So they use
bigger planes to avoid congestion, even for 45 minutes flights.
If you check at the reservation page of JAL:
http://www.jal.co.jp/en/dom/
You'll see 4 departure form Tokyo to Osaka with 747-400D for the 31 of october, and 4 to come back the same day. You can reserve!!!
Pagir
Post Edited ( 10-26-05 18:16 )